Profitable Trading System through Money Management - Interview with Gonçalo Moreira

Announcer: Sometimes forex trading can be a wild and woolly place to be but forex trading doesn't have to be the badlands for you partner. Instead, hunker down and bend your ear. You'll be burning the breeze in no time here at Truth About FX Podcast.

Walter: All right. I'm very excited today. I have Goncalo Moreira and he is at the FXStreet team. He's a trader, forex specialist and he's been trading for over 10 years so this is going to be interesting to hear some of Goncalo's stories from his perspective.

I was introduced to FXStreet many, many years ago. I don't know maybe 13 years ago or something like this. It was one of the first really beautiful forex websites I could find on the internet and I'm really happy to have you Goncalo.

Gonçalo: I'm very honoured, Walter, to be part of this event and I've been following your work for many years as starting being an user of FXStreet, then being a contributor as you have been for so many years and finally being part of FXStreet. You surely remember when we met here in the International Traders Conference in Barcelona. It was very interesting and we had great fun during those days.

Walter: Yeah, it was excellent. Those were the best conferences, yeah. Tell me, how did you find yourself getting into trading? You have kind of a unique background, you've lived in many countries. And, how did you find yourself a trader?

Gonçalo: That's true. My background comes from the artistic world. I graduated in fine arts. That was mid-90s but later I switched gears and I found myself confronted with the foreign exchange market. I was working in a export industrial conglomerate. We were exporting industrial plants outside of the EU. and it was a time when the Euro was launched and suddenly, I was with currency risk. That was something that, at least on a personal level, I remember it from my childhood when we travelled between Portugal and Spain and then Germany where we moved to.

We had to change Escudos to Pesetas and to Deutsche Mark. Suddenly, I remember that time when we had these different pricing, you had these nominal prices for the same good presented in a different currency but you had the same value for ... I'm referring, for example for a train ticket, and in Portugal maybe you paid 80 escudos and in Germany it was just 1 Deutsche Mark.

Certainly, it was already 2001/2002 when I was again faced with what we call exchange risk in exporting activities and there is where it all started. I started to look for ways to mitigate the risk and this happens a lot, I think, in companies where the more or less competent staff . Managing risk, you start looking at ways not only to mitigate risk but maybe to make a slight profit on the exchange rate changes and that's where it all started.

Walter: Yeah, right. In the beginning, your goal was just to hedge or to keep your prices under control, I suppose. Yeah?

Gonçalo: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to recover an eventual loss. I was expecting a payment in Euro and I was paid in Dollar. It was the time when Euro was at 80 cent, the historical minimum, and thought there is a potential difference in the nominal amount which I wanted to recover back.

I started investing in managing accounts. Later on, those manage accounts didn't work that well so I thought let's see if a can do it myself. Then I started learning a bit more and eventually open my own account and started learning. It was only later on when I started working for FXStreet when I thought now I have to go professional, I have to go for some standards.

Being at FXStreet, I was kind of an analyst of analysts. I had to filter the content, I had to filter the material that was presented to us and so I went for the CMT degree for the charted market technician as a way to have a standard.

If someone is coming with material for Elliott Wave, let's say, to check if that was valid -- what's in the material and if it was valid or not -- I needed some kind of standard and it was a time you may remember where there was this indicator frenzy time, where many theories were taken from the 90s and the stock market and were applied to the foreign exchange market.

They weren't at all valid, for this new market at least, in the retail spectrum and many people at that time are working as mentors and on the retail sphere were self-taught people. So you saw many of these technical principles being distorted, somehow. That's why I chose at sometime to be member of the Technical Association and to go for a more formal education in that sense. But, in the meantime, I have been under the mentoring process of other people in the retail sphere so I combine a little bit.

Walter: Interesting. I remember when the Euro was down at 78 cents, 80 cents and I didn't really have access to any forex trading books or information like that. I had to go to the stock books, as you mentioned that the technical analysis for stocks and shares. I wonder, do you think having  -- and you made an interesting comment -- do you think having that background, the CMT background, is that an advantage to know the "proper way" of interpreting Elliott Waves or moving averages or MACD? Can you talk a little bit about that because that's an interesting concept?

This idea of understanding the indicators as they were meant to be understood or something like that. I guess my question is, do you think it's an advantage for a large chunk of the market traders, of the participants in the market to know what they're going to do when they see something on the charts? Do you think that's an advantage?

Gonçalo: That's a very good question. I’ll share with you an experience. When I went for the level two in the CMT, one of the nine parts of the study was candlestick charting, candlestick patterns, validation and so on and I thought, "Wow! That's easy stuff." I studied much deeper the other theories like Dow, and the intermarket, and so on but that candle charting I thought that is something I have been using for years. It's going to be easy, that part of the exam. And it was the exam where I failed the most and I thought, "Wow! That means something." Then, I went studying much deeper all the subject on candlestick and, in this case classical Japanese candlestick charting, and there was much more into it. The same happened with all other parts of all other theories which belong to technical analysis.

I started looking at those theories and indicators in a different way in the sense that I knew the nature of the calculation for each indicator or for each theory. So, I knew at each time -- or as a CMT, I think you're in a position to know if I'm taking this approach. This theory or this kind of indicator or indicator suite, I know when it was created, why it was created, what was the requirement behind, and I know the exact nature of the calculation. I know that I'll be looking at price but, from price, I'll be extracting a certain quality, a certain information.

So, I'll be looking at the indicator but, in fact, I'm looking at price or volume for that matter if the indicator is derived from volume figures. Instead of looking at the indicator as a means per se because then you can fall into the trap of signal generation and following the indicator signals which is, as everyone knows, this stems from a time where you might have an advantage by having a PC where most of people trading markets had no access to. We're talking about what I know 40 years ago or something, so there absolutely no advantage. If you know the nature of the indicator, it makes things easier.

Besides of that knowing what to extract from price, you may even be in a position to stop using the indicator or not needing to use indicator that much because you already know the indicator would look like in a certain price structure. Looking at price alone, you would already have a notion for volatility figures, for momentum figures, for trend figures or whatever. You are not that dependent on the indicator itself.

On the other hand, in generally speaking as CMT, you'll learn although historically how technical analysis started and what was the propose of technical analysis as such. There is this well known adage, 'the trend is your friend' but, if you look at a classical purist of technical analysis, the Dow theory, just thinking of candlestick patterns which emerge in the 18th century Elliot self, no one of these classical analysts use technical analysis to just follow the trend.

A technical analysis was a way to simplify information and to extract the quality of prices. If it is time to go with the trend, if it's time to avoid the trend and expect a reverse. Also, to be ahead of the crowd, not just to follow the crowd. In that sense, I think technical analysis has inbuilt contrarian view in its DNA which is not understood. If you approached financial markets during the 90s, it was just following the trend precisely.

I had many friends who made a fortune during the 90s. Most of them didn't stop following the trend so they lost everything. But Eri Tash, which we took to the foreign exchange markets in the beginning of this millennium. We took only the last 10 years of technical knowledge obviating all the 100 years or more of foundations in technical analysis into the new century.

Walter: That's fascinating. You think that at its core, technical analysis is sort of a contrarian tool or can be?

Gonçalo: Somehow, it can be used as that. I think technical analysis, in many ways, is an archaic way to examine price behaviour and by examining price behaviour, you're also examining human behaviour but if you extrapolate the price behaviours to other spheres of human action, you could apply technical analysis to many things. Not only to prices but you can even apply technical analysis to weather patterns, to social movements, to demographic, to complex biological systems. I'm sure you could apply technical analysis to them because if you just randomly generate sequence of data, you see the same patterns emerging. You see channels, you see head and shoulders, triangles, contractions and expansions of volatility, and just by randomly generating data through a computer or so.

Perhaps, all the studies that are being done now in other disciplines being driven from the social field, from the more harder sciences, will serve as theoretical backbone to continue exploring technical analysis and to bring it to a new level because, really, we can’t just stay on that level to use technical analysis to follow the trend because that's too small that scope. This will need time but I believe behavioural finances, in general, are serving as the theoretical backbone of technical analysis and we're already seeing many advances in this area. I think you, having this kind of a academic background, Walter, you may agree to that. That neurosciences and psychology will offer great insights to things that we have been spotting with technical analysis for hundreds of years.

Walter: Yeah. Do you think that because it's so part of being human seeing patterns, that that's a lot of what happens with our approach to technical analysis because we see patterns even in random data? Is that something that you believe?

Gonçalo: Yeah. I believe, as humans, we are good as part of our natural wiring that we memorise patterns and we detect them. The thing is -- and I think this might be food for thought -- we usually look for patterns in the outside world, in what we see. But, I'm asking, what if you as a trainer or as an investor start looking for patterns within you? What if you start looking at yourself as part of your trading approach, as one more indicator? That, I think, is the missing part. Something that only few investor manage to have access to or to accept such as William Gann for example.

If you study Gann, you have all sorts of Gann techniques but there is something when you study Gann that you stumble like into a crystal wall. There is something missing there that is very difficult to understand what he really meant in his writings. I believe because he took himself as an indicator, something to observe and he started looking for patterns within his functioning.

This will be not part of my speech in the conference but I think this is something that should be taken into consideration, especially in these times where so many classical models are starting to break apart. Especially when in the traditional stock market analysis, many people are hating rally that we have seen in stock since 2009. All the metrics point to an eventual correction that never comes. Maybe looking in the inside will provide clues as to how to survive this market.

Walter: Yeah. A lot of clever traders have approached this in a similar way. They've looked at traders. For example, I've seen people do technical analysis on trader performance, I've seen a hedge fund manager I know, he tells his traders to quit trading after three months because he finds that their performance tends to trail off after three solid months. So they have a nine month vacation.

These sorts of things seem to be creeping into the trading world. Is this something that you're using currently in terms of analysis of yourself or something along those lines?

Gonçalo: Yeah. This is something I'm exploring. I haven't found exactly the way to integrate it but it’s something that has been in the back of my mind for a long time. Something that I'm starting to explore is through the use of financial astrology. Again, this will be not a topic at the conference but it's something very new for me and just starting to integrate this approach in my trading.

I believe what you say, what you have observed in many traders. I think this is a way to go not only in the trading world but in the corporate world. I think it will be very useful to be conscious of the cycles that we have as a group of people, as groups of people, as companies, as work teams and as individuals as well. Everything can be reduced to cycles, can be studied as having its own frequencies and, for sure, there are times when you can, for instance extract more profit from leverage, and other times where you shouldn't.

Really, to profit long-term from the markets and to avoid to see your returns be affected during difficult time, it's useful to be aware of those times ahead of time to prepare for that. Financial astrology is a great means to do that not only for traders but, generally, for every individual. It's useful to find your trader profile or your investor profile to find the channels and the ways you would be getting paid for your talent besides of finding the areas where you can find your talents. Really, all this push-wit of money, it facilitates going to the right direction because many times I see that we strive for money in the opposite direction which does not go into all the necessary steps to reap the rewards from being it trading or investing or doing business because we go counter-cyclical. We go the horse is behind, you go the opposite way. In many cases, this leads to failure.

Walter: Right. Is it simple as being aware of the fact that you have cycles or is it truly linked to astrology? For example, like circadian rhythms or things like that where people...

You might notice that you have a certain time of the month where you tend to be a little bit clumsy and you bump into things. So, maybe you're prone to spatial mistakes during this time or maybe there's another cycle where you're prone to mental mistakes or to overconfidence or underconfidence or these sorts of things. Is that really good enough or does it have to be linked to astrology? Because, I know a lot of traders will say, "I don't know. Financial astrology, that sounds a little bit crazy to me."

That's not something that they may go for but, is it as simple as having cycles and looking at those cycles or must they be linked to astrology?

Gonçalo: Not necessarily. Financial astrology or astrology per se is just knowledge field which is recently has been backed by studies coming from the study of physics and particles. There are a lot of parallel reasons but it happens a little bit the same as with technical analysis.

You have this framework which we have inherited, in this case, from thousands of years ago which has been transformed during the 20 century with the advances in psychology. So, all the vocabulary used in astrology today is very much characterised by psychological studies but in this, it’s just a framework and it's the same as when you feel hungry and you look to your watch and you see it's time for lunch. It is not because the pointers of your watch, it is not the pointers themselves that provoke you feeling hungry. It’s just that, in your cycle, it is time to eat. In the same way, if someone says, "I know there is mercury retrograde right now for three weeks. I must pay attention to fat finger errors,” for example. It's not because of mercury.

In my understanding in parallel reasons with the recent studies in our findings in physics, it's just that the cycles themselves where we are in without existence are pointing to a certain potential, and astrology is just one means to get access and to put a frame into it and to be able to verbalise it, to explain it. But, in the end, you can approach it through different levels. But, it's true when you talk about financial astrology that sounds really freaky. Perhaps, conceptually switching gears here a little bit, in case you don't have the necessary timing tools to make your financial decisions, trading decisions for that matter because we must remember: most of the technical approaches we have such as pattern recognition, the use of indicators etcetera don't have a timing dimension built into them, technical analysis. Only the part concerning cycles, perhaps, has something to do with time in the market. All other theories don't make use or are not a good to time the market.

My presentation in your conference will be dedicated partly to avoid the need of being good at timing the market so, I'm going a little bit back in my evolution as a trader. There was a moment where I said the tools that I've gained access to through the knowledge I got are good at spotting price, at quantifying the magnitude of a movement. But, in terms of timing, they're very poor. I knew that I could study eventually later on theories that would help me with that. For the moment, I thought I need to have a methodology where I'm not timing sensitive, where I don't have to find out the perfect trade, the perfect entry and the perfect exit.

This will be my contribution at the conference where we have developed a methodology where you can be in the market permanently and you'll be not in the need to find the perfect trade nor will you be exposed to the loss of opportunity.

Walter: Right. And, is that the way you trade at the moment? Is this one of your methods?

Gonçalo: Exactly. I was deeply influenced by some people who worked as dedicated contributors at FXStreet. You might remember to have the same conference here in Barcelona where you were... There was someone called Richard Olsen.

Walter: Yeah, from Oanda.

Gonçalo: It was at the same conference, co-founder of Oanda. He was one of my inspirations in the sense that he measured… He found some scaling laws and ways to measure volatility in the markets in a very clever way. You have several ways to measure volatility. We have the historical volatility and we have implied volatility through the options copulation. He found out that you could measure volatility not in terms of risk but in terms of potential. This gives a notion of the length of the coastline of price evolution and it provides you an incredible way to establish hypothesis, how to capitalise on market movements. It's a completely different way.

I remember at that conference, that was perhaps the least understood speaker at the conference...

Walter: Absolutely.

Gonçalo: Yeah. I remember but, there was a handful perhaps of people who had this kind of epiphany moment. They said, “Wow! This is something really different.” I connected the dots with a previous conference we had, I think it was 2007 or so. I was not yet working at FXStreet. I attended the conference as a newser at that time and we had at that conference speaking, Mr. Dirk du Toit from South Africa who had a very particular kind of approach to the forex markets. There was also one of his students who just had won a real money trading contest. It was interesting to see how two years later FXStreet organised another real money contest and among the winners there were again students of Dirk du Toit.

He had this strange way to trade the markets. At that time with my limited knowledge, I started or tried to reverse engineer their strategy but it was impossible. Why? Because at the foremost, it was a money management technique which was being applied. This will be the core of my presentation.

It's going to be about one side, as I said, profiting from the coastline of what we call the coastline of foreign exchange trading. The other big part is money management. Not management as we have heard thousands of time in the retail world where you see ideas, like don't risk more than 2% in one trade, go for risk rewards of 3:1, nothing of that sort. It's money management understood as a critical layer of your methodology. So critical, so important ,that more than a trader you have to consider yourself as a money manager.

In the foreign exchange market, that starts by knowing very basic things like what is margin, what is the available margin, the consumed margin, what is the pip value at any moment, how do I calculate my net positioning, my exposure of both sides, things like that. Then you start thinking as a money manager and then you can really do astonishing things like Dirk du Toit students did to win those contests. It was not lucky. They were technically even... They were really poor in sometimes.

I started then evaluating a lot of traders through this lens. A lot of successful traders, I've been finding in most of them were in fact using a very strong money management approach. So strong that some of them, when reverse engineering their technical strategy, it was rather simple. Some of them are really, really basic in terms of rule -- technical rule -- to enter and exit the markets. But, the strong part was in the money management. Just to give you a few hints on kind of elevator pitch what is my strategy about. My strategy doesn't make use of leverage per trade, so infra-leverage per trade. I use risk to reward/ratios which are 50:1, 70:1. So totally inverse to the usual figures.

I don't use stop losses at all. I don't use mechanical stop loss orders. So, all these kind of counter-intuitive rules that you say, well, what is your aim? To destroy your account? I've been trading like this for two years now on a personal account. I don't manage big money, not a professional trader in that sense that I've never managed big funds for corporations. We just started here in FXStreet in January managing companies accounts using this methodology.

Walter: You're doing that? You're one of those that are doing that, right?

Gonçalo: Yeah. I’m that trader, exactly. Right now, I'm the sole trader for these accounts. But on a personal account, I've been using these since March 2015 with modest results, I must say, but very stable.

I've shared these ideas, this approach, with many people along the way. People who had better techniques than myself, who have more dedication to explore the market on an intra-day basis, who have extrapolated this methodology into much better results than me. I believe that by sharing these ideas with the audience in the conference, they'll be able to take their trading to a new level without abandoning their rules. They can still use their rules be it patent recognition, being whatever macro views or new string, whatever. By applying a different approach of money management, they'll be able to really take off with their strategy.

At least, it’s what I saw in the people that I've been sharing this with. Right now, we are sharing this really only in very measured amounts and with limited audiences because I found out that this is very sensible information that we're sharing here. These approaches at FXStreet are only in the premium area. I'll be sharing this with your audience as well because I think that the approach is just great. It's a conference made by traders for traders and I think the synergies that can come out of this conference can be absolutely amazing. I've watched some of the recordings and we will have made different profiles that combine. I think users will just take off after attending the conference.

Walter: Yeah, absolutely. That's fascinating. It's a layer of money management. You lay over sort of any trading system and you've found it work quite well. I wonder, is this one of those things where you just think I can never go back to trading the old ways? Is that where you're at now? You just feel like this is, you will always trade this way?

Gonçalo: I think so, yeah. It has to do also with the fact that after many years, you eventually find the way to trade that really fits your character, your approach to markets, and to life generally speaking. It was my case. But, because I have seen this, as I said, replicated in other people, I thought this is not something that’s particular with my way to see things but this is really a practical way to approach forex markets.

Let's face it, the foreign exchange market, although it is being considered as another asset class as we could have bonds, stocks or commodities, it's a kind of different animal because also in the way it behaves. I think that when you see an exchange rate, in fact technically, it's a ratio. You are measuring one currency in terms of another. This, in technical analysi,s is a relative strength study. You can do this by taking gold and silver and do a gold silver ratio. You can do a ratio between stocks and bonds and see which one is out-performing. The ratio itself behaves much in the same way as a price chart. You can apply technical rules to it, you can plot an indicator or oscillator, you can draw trend lines and such.

Essentially, the forex market is a ratio study and ratio studies don't have this upside bias which may have a stock index or a single stock. In any case, it would behave somehow similar to a commodity because there is something material translated into a currency. That makes the foreign exchange market something really different from other asset classes. By understanding this, by understanding this oscillating behaviour, this is where you can really extract a lot of potential from these up and downs in its price behaviour.

If you look to a long term chart of any currency pair, you'll see that it differs from stock markets in the way that they have been in branches for decades sometimes. So, what does this mean in terms of trading? This kind of oscillating nature, this is something that we will look to exploit.

Walter: Yeah, that's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. It makes perfect sense. So, I'm really looking forward to your presentation. Is it fair to say -- and I know I'm trying to crack the code here -- is it fair to say that.... You were talking about the potential volatility or a way of looking at volatility in a different way linking back to the Olsen talk. Is this ratio somehow linked to potential volatility or is that something different?

Gonçalo: The concept of coastline which Olsen adopted is in fact something that came from the mathematical world. When you measure the coastline in a map…

First, to measure the coastline, you have to previously adhere to a distance from which you are observing that coastline because if you go on-site and start measuring the coastline walking through the coastline, you'll get -- for the UK Coast, for example -- you'd get a measure which would go several times around the planet because you would be measuring it on the ground.

If you establish a threshold, a priori, then you have a standardised measure of the coastline which you can apply to all other coasts. In the same way, if you watch price as it would be a coastline, it is different if you measure it in thresholds of 10 pips in the case of foreign exchange market, or 20 pips or 100 pips similar to the way we construct point and figure charts.

Walter: Point and figure, yeah. Exactly. I was thinking the same thing.

Gonçalo: This is where, by the way, it becomes interesting to know a little bit of classical tactical analysis because you recognise concept. Let's say if I start measuring all those price movements of a currency pair in terms of 50 pips, I'd say the Euro dollar in the last year in terms of 50 pips. Fiity pips, it has moved in one direction without reversing 50 pips in the opposite. You start measuring how many 50 pips movement were there then compare this with the price range. Maybe you got a price range which is, I don't know, in the last year 1000 and something, 1300 pip maybe. How many pips in terms of 50 pip movements have you got? Maybe you got like 50,000. So, compare the volatility measured in terms of high and low and compare it volatility measured in terms of coastline.

Suddenly, you realise this type of volatility measure. It's not about risk, it's about potential. It's about potential. The risk would be to know how far it can go in terms of historical ranges. But, this way to measure the coastline gives you a potential and you start thinking, "Wow. In one year, 50,000 pip? Can I extract 1% of 50,000?" Suddenly, this hypothesis starts becoming realistic because it's not the same to capture the whole potential of a thousand and few pip. The whole range of extracting just 1% or 2% of the coastline which becomes much more realistic. So, yeah, capturing 1% of the price movement wouldn't be that difficult.

These are what my studies and my trading show. That my win rate is about 94%, 95%.

Walter: Right. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Gonçalo: Obviously, I have to deal with the other 5% which you have floating in negative. That's what we will be discussing. That's the core idea.

Walter: It reminds me, I used to try this system where we would trade like -- I don't know if this has anything to do with it and you don't have to tell me. I'm looking forward to your talk, anyway, at the event but I used to trade a system where it was a grid. So, we would push through the grid and the grid would reestablish but then we had options to cover the downside. So, we still had risk because you would get stuck with these positions that you had to hold for a long time. I don't know if that's what you're getting at here but it's fascinating to hear you talk about this because it kind of reminds me of that. I'm really looking forward to your talk, Goncalo. This is a very interesting thing.

Does this guy in South Africa, this Dirk -- what's his name? Dirk?

Gonçalo: Dirk du Toit.

Walter: Does he offer FXStreet webinars as well or is he not associated with FXStreet?

Gonçalo: Yes. From time to time, especially when we talk about things like margins and the use of leverage, we ask him to contribute because in that matter, he's really an expert. He's also very good on the macro-level, interpreting the macro dimensions in the foreign exchange markets. So, he blended kind of great trading, as you've just mentioned with macro-analysis and money management, which is very particular to his method. The money management part, it inspired me also to build this method. I do collect macro information and do my long term evaluations and such. I do that for sure but my approach is although I trade very short term, I might be scalping. If I have the time, I might spend the day scalping the markets or, if not, having a very short term approach in terms of the but my views are really long term as well because you have to deal with those floating positions I've just mentioned and this requires also a long term view. So, it's a combination of short term and very long term approach in terms of analytical skills as well.

Walter: It's fascinating. I'm really looking forward to your talk. This really piqued my interest. Just to wrap up here, Goncalo, is there anything else you want to leave us with before we see you at the event? Is there anything else? This is a fascinating discussion.

Gonçalo: Thank you, thank you. You know, my aim by participating in your conference is two fold. I want to meet the people that will be attending and speaking because I think that there is a huge potential in there.

What I can offer, my intention is to offer a potential for those listening to what I have to share which eventually will become something positive in their careers as traders. I can't assure that this will fit your methodology but this is at least my intention to have to offer you a potential, future potential, which you can make it your own if you wish and transform your trading for the better.

I have done this in the last years. When I started trading this methodology in 2015, just before I spent a year paper trading it and making calculations and so on. After that year, I remember we did a meetup here in FXStreet. There were like 20 people or so attending the webinar and for many people or for few people, actually throughout the site because we weren't that many, attending that presentation which by the way I repeat, lacked real results whereas now in London I'll be presenting real money results.

At that conference already were people impacted by the concepts and transformed the way they trade. Nowadays, they're much better than me. I believe the people in your conference ,many of them if they take, incorporate some of these ideas into their trading, they'll be probably much better than myself.

I just hope not to ruin the track record in the remaining time or at least if I ruin I have a good explanation for that.

Walter: Yeah, that's funny. You're being very modest. I'm sure you'll be fine.

Gonçalo: In any case, I think it will be of interest to collaborate.

Walter: That's great, that's awesome. Thanks so much for your time, Goncalo, and I'm really looking forward to your presentation. This is a fascinating topic. I can say that I think it's going to be transformative. So, this is excellent stuff. Thank you so much for sharing this with everyone at the conference. I can't wait.

Gonçalo: Thank you, Walter, and thank you very much for everyone listening and see you soon in London.

Walter: See you soon. Okay, thanks.